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This data is immensely helpful! Just look at what our guy Kyle found last summer and released at Defcon. Full remote control of every Tor node, ever.

Think it won't happen again? We do have a commercial onion routing network using a patched version of Tor, but that is just a lab network for private testing and simulations. I can see that you feel you've been led astray by others before. I am hardly surprised. I feel the same way about most other commercial "anonymity" networks out there. Our policy is to under-promise, over- deliver.

Nothing gets you angry customers quicker than promising something you don't deliver. Those abilities reside with superpowers only. If you're attacker is a superpower, the point is moot already and outside the threat model of even Tor. We control all our servers, so by that fact they are colluding. But unlike Tor, non-collusion isn't where the anonymity occurs. The anonymity is accomplished outside of the collusion of nodes. We don't keep logs.

We don't know who is using the network. We can't reverse the connection unless it is live. We don't have data to hand over to authorities. You're over-simplifying. Anonymity is not a black and white. Infact, there is even no metric for measuring anonymity. Tor accomplishes anonymity in a variety of ways. XeroBank accomplishes anonymity in a similar variety of ways. Let's look at it another way: If Tor had been designed to be used by a single family of nodes, it would have been designed as two-hop, not three.

Actually, I prefer "Privacy" to "Anonymity" because it is more well understood. The fact is that the system is anonymous. Well if you remove node collusion as a threat, then Tor and XB threat is relatively the same: You can only trace the connection live if you have internal access to nodes, or by traffic analysis if you have global access. That isn't the whole of all details, but it is a relatively good generalization. Good analogy. I like that "privacy" example.

Now here is another good analogy. And this can be accomplished with XeroBank to a good degree. The question is, because we are omnipotent over all nodes on the network, what is the hurdle to reverse the anonymity?

Well, first we would have to know what the attack signature was like. Then we would have to monitor all outgoing data streams. After that we would then need to locate a live connection. Then we would need to trace that live connection back. What does it trace back to? Not an identity. We could only trace it back to the incoming IP address. That is another major difference in XeroBank versus all other "snakeoil" as you put it. We don't know the identity of the account holder. Nobody said there was.

Physical control of the hardware isn't such a big deal in the threat model. Loss of hardware is a nominal risk, but not to the data inside it. Now if someone was to try to attack the data inside the machine, I think they would need some way to monitor the RAM using some hardware device, as they won't be able to gain access to the software system. However, that threat isn't any different than Tor, except our system is stronger because the machine is necessarily running multiple levels of encryption on a hardened Gentoo installation, whereas Joe Tor Box probably isn't.

Abuse is dealt with by machines snorting plaintext traffic to look for relatively obvious attacks like DoS, port scanning, etc. Those attacks will get the access account shut down without the malicious traffic ever having seen a human eye. In the case that the malicious-o- meter detects what it thinks is malicious traffic, only then does it get logged and it goes to an auditor and then is conferred with the ethics advisor.

Later the account in question may be terminated if the ethics advisor thinks it violates our terms of service. Otherwise, the logs are wiped and the account is cleared of any flags. Excellent question. We use a token based system. What we do is have two accounts. The first is the Deposit Account. It can have your identity attached to it, like credit card info, or gold account info, etc. You're charged monthly, and then your account is credited with bandwidth tokens.

These tokens are then encrypted and dropped into the letterbox. This is where your Access Account comes in. The Access Account picks up tokens and can only decrypt the ones meant for it. We cannot automatically reverse the transaction unless the user links up an automatic dropping in of tokens into a specific Access Account. The user uses the credentials of the Access Account and the accounting backend redeems these tokens with our servers in exchange for server resources like VPN, file storage, or email services.

Thus is accomplished the separation of identity and activity. This allows us to know the customer without knowing which activity belongs to the customer. We have monitoring servers that let us know what is going on in the network. If anyone is logged in, the server loads, etc. All the internal goings on are monitored.

If something is heuristically out of the ordinary, we look into it. Either that, or magic. Attacks are typically easy to spot. See above. Defense in depth, traps, fail-secure design, and leveraged unpredictability. Only if the deposit account is set to automatically credit an access account. And users have control of that, and we don't keep those logs either. Else they can just send the tokens from the Deposit to the Access account manually and so no link exists.

Actually, it is very strong. I would have liked to present it at PET but we just didn't have time this year because we've been busy with this project. We'll be putting it out later, though, and sending it out for peer review. If you want I can give you one of our old mockups for the design back when it was just card-based, but that is out-moded now since we've made a lot of changes.

I disagree. We should take this debate topic to another thread, and we can set up some test that you and I can both run. Of course, we'll have to accept some level of fluctuation in the control set, but if you're game, so am I. I'll gladly admit I was wrong if that is what the results say. Pepsi challenge? At the end of the day the connection is done via OpenVPN using certificates, and some clever routing to make it easy for the user. Show it to me.

Btw, physical security doesn't have any footing regarding an operating system. What a hackers dream: I was discussing this with Kyle the other day. He said what more could a hacker hope for than a backdoor that already has encryption and anonymity built right into it.

What a good point. If someone hacked Tor, they have an untraceable access door into your system. Especially with the false sense of security you were provided by it. Ah well. I'm sure the Tor devs are praying hard that Kyle doesn't find another total exploit. I'll even send you a link to download one of the latest release candidate builds.

We released this monster at Defcon into the most hostile network on earth and it has yet to have any dents put in it. I stand behind what I say, and offer proof. The least you can do is test it, considering all the empty bluster you've put forth about vaporware and snakeoil.

Correct, except you left out the aspect: Tor has many node families, and all are assumed untrustworthy. You must protect your eggs in every basket. XB is a single entity, and assuming you trust XB, you are only placing your eggs in one trusworthy basket. So, three untrustworth baskets that collude in order to compromise and have nothing to lose, or one trustworthy basket that could collude but would suffer trust bankruptcy if it acts with impropriety. Sure, we credit the deposit account.

What you do with the balance is up to you. Deposit account is shut off, and has no more tokens to give the Access Account. Addressed in parallel post. If you have more questions, I'm happy to answer them. You have a stunning intellectual capacity for ad hominem attacks, but I don't think those are going to make your case, they further cloud it. But perhaps coherency isn't your aim.

Of course, this is Usenet, the gutter of the internet, and your signature cartoon does go a long way to explaining your modus operandi. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt this once.

Because to achieve that level, you would need an order of magnitude worth of users connected at the same time to get to the crowding "sweet spot" for such a design. You cut and apple and an orange with the same knife.

Does that mean apples are oranges? Proving negatives is impossible, but if you're looking for leaktests that is something else. Sure it is, if you consider the terms.

In your instance, you're using pedophiles. We don't protect pedophiles, because that violates the UDHR, our standard in our terms of service. You attract the attention of global adversaries when you commit high crimes. Those not committing high crimes won't likely attract global adversaries. Of course, we aren't trying to protect against superpower intelligence operations for a client.

Different threat model. To believe that superpowers have the resources to monitor all threats, much less all high crimes as is, is being beyond generous. Now let's use a different threat model: Say joe sixpack does the taxfraud thing you talked about. Let us say he is a US citizen and uses some US privacy service. Not only can weaker tools be used to capture his identity, such as National Securtiy Letters or even a simple FBI visit, but it was a one-stop data breach.

The company didn't have any ability to choose to cooperate or not because they were in a jurisdiction of authority. Would the FBI bothered to get international court orders? Probably not. There is much lower hanging fruit in the jurisdiction of authority. Are we trying to protect criminals? But what a crime is, is up for discussion. That is why our standard is Panamanian law, and our terms are the universal declaration of human rights. Those are some simple things to be agreed on.

If it isn't black under those terms, it comes back white. There are certain instances of shades of grey, but in six years of operations, we haven't had any breaches of identity despite hundreds of requests from LE. Yes, Except x faster, with no malicious people monitoring your exit nodes. This is the same threat to XB. However there is a threshold already crossed when you get to global adversaries superpowers. Globe size is irrelevant because they can monitor all the nodes, regardless of globe size.

So comparing a smaller globe to a larger globe is moot. I would say that's bullshit. Care to cite? And why your service would not be any less susceptible? Of course, this is Usenet, the gutter of the internet,. Which you are spending considerable time in our "gutter". It's your data, you expose it. How the hell do I know what you didn't test? Here's a clue.

Real software has no problems exposing their underbellies, real software companies don't have a problem with being questioned. As you do. Scam on. Yes, now back to the question. You said "XeroBank is not Tor in any way shape or fashion"? Which time did you lie? Then or when you said ToR was? In order to make up for your services lack of anonymity, you have to hide in a crowd of millions? It acts with impropriety when it sells itself on anonymity while it and everyone else knows that it is based upon trust.

People think I and others blast anyone not cotse. This is not true. What is true is that so far it is only cotse that I can't bash, for it would go like this: "You don't provide anonymity" "yes, we know, by definition we are a trust based service, not an anonymous one" "You have to have some kind of logs to run a secure service because you have to know what is happening on your service to protect it" "Yes, we do, they are listed here" It's hard to bash someone when they agree with you and their story doesn't have holes to poke at.

Now to you. Right here you admit it is trust based with this whole risk of "trust bankruptcy" you mention. While on your site you sell it as "anonymous, no logging". No need to trust you if it is anonymous with no logs. Which is it, trust you or no need to trust you?

One of them is a lie. That lie is the act of impropriety that is causing your "trust bank" to suffer. Don't be willfully ignorant. It's not cute or clever. You ARE the third party. There's the originator, the recipient, and you. Your attitude and tactics do more to support the assertion that you're nothing more than another snake oil peddler than the people attacking you and your pay-for proxy.

We don't protect pedophiles,. Here it is again The smaller the target the easier it is to compromise. And you are a target of one while Tor is a target of thousands. I would say you're playing the same puerile snip and spew games that so many before you have played. And lost miserably. You're acting like a child rather than addressing the very real questions and concerns people have.

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